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question about a wheel build?

question about a wheel build?

First off I don't know anything about building up a wheel.  Yesterday on a group ride my rear wheel came out of true (very bad) and I don't think it was because I hit anything, very good roads at a moderate pace.  Took the wheel in and had a mechanic true it up - I watched it seemed like he did a great job.  On todays ride the wheel again came way out of true and I know I didn't hit anything and was on some of the nicest roads I've ridden.  I've broken spokes before and never had the tire go woefully out of wack so quickly.  There were so many spokes that were incredibly loose. 

Had a spoke wrench with me tried to use my brakes to tighten and true the tire along side the road (too far to walk) but none of the spokes would keep their tightness (over time) and I wasn't going to oven tighten them - unsure what's going on out on the side of a road.

So any insights why a perfectly trued tire would come out of true after riding for less than forty miles?  Again I know today and yesterday I didn't hit anything including potholes.  Thanks for any advice  jeff

p.s. the bike /wheels are less than a month old

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Re: question about a wheel build?

I think you got a lot of good opinions on bikeforums.net

2013 mileage=12,169 miles;
2014 mileage=5,156 miles;
2015  mileage=6,200 miles;
2016 mileage=17,503 miles;

Isaias O'Daniell
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Re: question about a wheel build?

Thanks Isaias,  one question I don't understand is the life of this wheel now after two rides both hobbling home.  Should / do I need to ask for a replacement wheel or can this wheel be brought back to true with the correct tension with everything as good as new?  I like the longer rides meaning I can be quite far from home.  thanks for any insights or advice.  jeff

p.s. are there any club mechanics classes for us newbies?

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Re: question about a wheel build?

Jeff wrote:

Thanks Isaias,  one question I don't understand is the life of this wheel now after two rides both hobbling home.  Should / do I need to ask for a replacement wheel or can this wheel be brought back to true with the correct tension with everything as good as new?  I like the longer rides meaning I can be quite far from home.  thanks for any insights or advice.  jeff

p.s. are there any club mechanics classes for us newbies?

Jeff, I'd try to get the wheel replaced, since you stated that it's new.  If that's not possible for some reason, you can get the wheel rebuilt. I've used Joe's Bike Shop and Princeton Sports to have wheels rebuilt. There's several Bike Doctor shops in the Frederick, Linthicum/Crofton/Arnold/Gambrills/Annapolis areas. They do wheels, too.

2013 mileage=12,169 miles;
2014 mileage=5,156 miles;
2015  mileage=6,200 miles;
2016 mileage=17,503 miles;

Isaias O'Daniell
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Re: question about a wheel build?

I agree with Isaias.  I would not accept a 2nd retruing of the wheel, and push hard for a new one.  After quite a few miles with the wheel not properly trued, and the failed 1st retruing, I would worry that the rim has been weakened and cannot be restored by retruing to give you the life that the wheel should have given you if it had been properly trued in the first place.  Tell the shop that you've asked for advice on two bike lists and been told that you need a new wheel.  The manufacturer should stand behind their product and just accept that this is a flawed wheel - whether if is a bad rim or a bad build.  Mistakes get through quality control every once in a while.

Factory built or hand built, this is very rare.   Even just adequately built wheels will take a lot of abuse without failing like this. 

I've never had a wheel do anything like this and I would guess I've ridden as many, if not more total miles than Isaias, but over a much longer time period (8k+ miles being my longest year, no others over about 5600 miles).  [I'm older than he is. :<)]

Keep us posted.

Good luck,

Sam

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Re: question about a wheel build?

It is hard to say why this would happen, without having the wheel in hand. I happen to agree with Sheldon Brown in this section "How Many Spokes?"
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes
Most bikes come with machine built wheels. After lacing, the four final adjustments are true, dish, roundness and tension. Tension is important in determining wheel strength and longevity.
Rules of thumb I operate by on on  rear wheels are properly built 32h are OK for 175lbs and below, over 175lbs should go for 36h 700c wheels. 26" mountain bike wheels are OK with 32h rears most of the time. 32H 700c fixed gear rear wheels are generally OK, as long as the wheel is close to symmetrical.
I am in trouble already, but consider this. A 195lb person buys a bike with a 700c 32h rear wheel. The bike is actually used, and after a couple of months of use with a couple of post purchase free adjustments the wheel will not stay true. (The free tune ups actually introduce uneven tension.) The wheel might get replaced by the dealer, or the customer is sold on a manufactured (boutique) wheel. Or better for the shop, a matching wheelset. One thing you will notice about these wheels is, strong rims combined with a few tight spokes. Shop does not have to deal with having mechanic who know how to build wheels, and can sell more product.
Not that this is bad, bike industry profit margins are so low, this is survival. After the frame, wheels are generally the most expensive component.
Each rider has to learn what works for them. OEM wheels generally do not last more than one season for heavier riders. Could be also that the OEM wheel did not have enough tension?

Steve

Steve, Millersville

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Re: question about a wheel build?

I think that the Sheldon Brown advice (on spoke count) is a bit dated, although I also consider his wisdom the FIRST stop on getting educated on anything having to do with bikes.  Wheel technology (heck, all technology) has been advancing quickly over the last decade.  I weigh 189 to 194 during prime season and am often just over 200 starting every season coming off winter.  I ride about 3000 to 4000 miles a year, generally very fast and very hard.  I wear out back tires pretty quickly (2K mi) and they become very flat and square due to side stresses I put on them with my torque into the pedals and frame.

I've pretty much ridden Campagnolo wheels for the last decade and have had almost zero problems with them.  This has been both the Nucleon (like the newer Neutron) with a "normal" cross section (not deep) looking like a classic Mavic 33 but with only 22 front and 24 rear (bladed) spoke count.  Perhaps 10,000 miles or more and only one broken spoke and never had to true any of my five plus sets.  I did turn around and have to "limp" home with that broken spoke.  Fast wheels, very strong and I believe either the Nucleon or Neutron are a bargain at the price.

I stumbled into this old post and you might find it interesting.
http://www.biketechreview.com/reviews/w … cle-wheels

My two sets of higher performance wheels are the Eurus which has Campy's G3 spoke layout rear with 21 (bladed) spokes in groups of 3 (2 drive side, 1 non in each group) and a simple, straight pull 22 spoke front wheel.  I've done about 10,000 miles on them (maybe more) and have NEVER had to true one and only broke one spoke recently and it may have been damaged, not failed.  Even with the broken spoke, I was able to ride the wheel for another 100 miles (on 20 remaining spokes!).

If you saw how little damage my front Eurus suffered when I hit a deep pothole at 25+, you'd swear by them too.  The wreck wrenched the wheel to the side, tore the tire/tube off and ejected me over the bars (broken clavicle) and other than a deep gouge in across the braking surface, it was almost still in true!  The guy who hit the hole behind me tacoed his Ritchey wheel the worst I've ever seen (beyond totaled).

One note, I also have a set of the old Proton wheels which where cheapies with normal, rounded spokes (28/28) and I've squashed them with my travel bike repeatedly and they also are doing fine.

I did a thousand miles on some Ksyriums and they seemed fine, a friend of mine swears by the new Shamal's from Campy ($$$) as perhaps the best wheels ever and everyone has an opinion but that is mine and I ride Campy wheels!  You can't just go by pure spoke count and weight of rider.  I have seen that low spoke count wheels tend to taco badly when breaking a spoke unless the rim is deeper dish (like the Eurus).

BTW, sitting on the 16th floor at the Marriott overlooking both Horseshoe Falls and American Falls at Niagara on the Canada side.  They are lighted like rainbows tonight and we had dueling fireworks from the American side and the Canadian side, all videoed out the window from this incredible view.  Another item crossed off my bucket list.  Pictures don't do it justice, just one of those things you really MUST see (like a helicopter tour of Maui) and I highly recommend it.  It's only six or seven hours away and (except for July 4th) a cheap trip.

Riding in Toronto area the rest of the week.  I brought the Moots Mootour with the S&S couplers for one more bit of fun before I sell it.

Stuart

~too much of anything is just enough for me. Pete Townshend

Stuart Lamb
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Re: question about a wheel build?

Stuart, the Bike Tech website does balance several factors, and for the strong recreational rider and high mileage unsupported rider, durability is a likely a prime consideration. Manufactured wheels are strong and expensive, and for most casual riders probably too expensive. Low spoke manufactured wheels have high spoke tension, and the rims are stronger. It does take some skill and time to get good tension into hand built, or shop built wheels. Most kids working in bike shops get good, after awhile. (How many learning wheels go out the door?)
On new bikes, I have had good luck with working over the stock wheels to get more life out of them. But at 220lbs, 32h machine built wheels do not last. I bought a Trek XO-1 cyclocross bike in 2003 and ran 28mm tires on it. Rear wheel lasted one season, with constant touching up. Built up a 36h Ultegra, and have not had problem since. If I weighed 170lbs, doubt I would have these problems.
Bottom line from the original post, I don't expect much from OEM wheels. It takes awhile for any rider to get a bike dialed in for their style of riding, and it is a bummer to have a ride ruined because of a borked wheel on a new bike. Steve

Steve, Millersville

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Re: question about a wheel build?

I think Sheldon Brown's advise on the high spoke count is based more on boxed rims then aero/semiaero rims.  Boxed rims like the Mavic Open Pro rims need more spokes then say semiaero Kinlin XR-300 rims so you need to factor in rim shape with spoke count.

I have a R28 SL3 Neuvation front wheel and replaced the matching rear wheel (its still in good shape) with a custom built Kinlin rim, 28 DT comp spokes, laced to a Powertap Elite+ hub (the reason for the new wheel)

colnagotifosi, the energy used up to tear the tire off your wheel may have been what saved it

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