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Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

colnagotifosi wrote:

I would suggest that every cue sheet in the library should be posted in PDF format. 

I suggest that NO file in the cue library be in PDF format. This format is tremendously difficult to edit.  The only permissible formats should be .doc and .xls.  We want every file in the cue library to be EASY to edit.  This is key to encouraging others to correct them and keep the cue library up to date. We do not want a shadow cue library of editable cue sheets hidden away on the sides.

I recommend that the only permissible formats for the cue library be .xls and .doc. 

*****

This is a good discussion to have.  I look forward to others weighing in..

So far the case against PDFs has made: they can not be edited. (Easily.)

What is the advantage of a PDF file, if any?

What are the pros and cons of .doc and .xls files?

ed

Ed Hopkins
ed.hopkins@verizon.net

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

"What is the advantage of a PDF file, if any?
What are the pros and cons of .doc and .xls files?"

The advantage of a PDF file ,is that I can open / view it w/o having to purchase & or bog down my pc by adding any additional programs (that would ONLY be used / needed to view cue sheets:)

The cons of the .xls files is that I cannot view them w/o purchasing or adding an additional program  to view them:-(

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

My $0.02:

Advantages of pdf:
1. Universality. Adobe Reader is free.
2. Easy to convert other formats to pdf. I use pdf creator (another open source freebie)

Disadvantages of pdf:
1. Cannot readily edit, cannot readily reformat because pdf is basically an image, not discrete data

Advantages of spreadsheet:
1. Easily edited/formatted IF you have the software
2. Downloadable info (I think) IF you have the software

Disadvantages of spreadsheet
1. You need the software

MY GRIPE: Cue sheets using too small a font. 10-point font is too small. That means you Ken Philhower  current/big_smile  current/lol . And while I'm in rant mode, serif fonts are harder to read than sans serif. Personally, I make cue sheets in UPPERCASE, 12-point (minimum), Arial font.

Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
http://www.despair.com/demotivators/compromise.html
Chris Tsien
LAB Certified Instructor

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Carl

I really want to help you. Can you answer the questions I have asked you?  (Or send me me email --ed.hopkins-at-verizon.net--so we can pursue this discussion off line and not clog the forum.)

You recent comment that you prefer pdf files because you don't have to purchase additional software to read them goes completely against your statement that you already own Microsoft Office. MS Office reads .doc files and .xls files. And Open Office, which Sam recommended, reads them both and is free.  I find it incredible that the ONLY time you encounter .xls files (or ..doc files?) is in reading cue sheets. These files are ubiquitous on the internet. 

The questions:

Can you give me a list of file formats (the file extension, the three letters on the right of the period) that you are unable to open. As far as I know there are NO files in the cue library in the "works format."   Since you do have Microsoft Office you should have had no trouble opening the Galesville ride cues which are in .doc and .xls format. I assume you have to have Adobe reader. Every computer made in the last ten years comes with Adobe reader which allows you to read .pdf files.

I am trying to figure out if there are corrupt cue sheets in the cue library or cue sheets in a strange, unusual format.  Sam thinks the whole problem is you and your software; I want to make sure this is the case.


Thanks

ed

Ed Hopkins
ed.hopkins@verizon.net

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Hi All
As club secretary I always send out my minutes in both Word and  pdf. files--believe it or not some club members use Macs and don't have a program to read a doc. file but their Mac will read a pdf. file.
Having said that, I agree with having the club cue sheets in multiple formats that can be easily edited and read on any PC or Mac. I have updated a few cue sheets this year. I miss a lot of features of Cuesheetcentral's format of the cue sheet library but the current version does allow you to see when the cue sheet was last edited.
Anyone in the club who is keen on keeping the library up to date, step right up and volunteer. The club needs a full time cue sheet librarian. Ed Hopkins, Steve Zeldin and John Busteed did a great job in converting and putting the current cue sheet library together from cuesheetcentral. Anyone who would like to take on the job of creating multiple formats for the cue sheets can volunteer now. There is always more work to do.
Ed Cahill
BBC Secretary

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

ehc3rd@gmail.com wrote:

I agree with having the club cue sheets in multiple formats that can be easily edited and read on any PC or Mac.

So your suggestion is to keep the cue sheets in multiple formats?  This is a new suggestion and deserves serious attention.  My suggestion was to keep every cue sheet in ONE of two "permissible" formats: .doc or .xls.  If club members can't read these formats, they should get Open Office so they can read them. These formats are both capable of easily being edited which is critical to keeping the cue sheets up to date.

Also to address the comments from "crhisbike":  if cue sheets are in .doc or .xls format they can easily be put in a different or larger font.  This is not possible with a pdf file.

PDF files have to go. There are no other standard formats in wide usage except for .doc and .xls. 

Before we start a project of redoing the cue library we have to have some sense of what direction we are going in and why and also have some unanimity about that direction. We are not at that position yet. 

ed

Ed Hopkins
ed.hopkins@verizon.net

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Ed Hopkins wrote:

colnagotifosi wrote:

I would suggest that every cue sheet in the library should be posted in PDF format. 

I suggest that NO file in the cue library be in PDF format. This format is tremendously difficult to edit.  The only permissible formats should be .doc and .xls.  We want every file in the cue library to be EASY to edit. 
This is a good discussion to have.  I look forward to others weighing in..
ed

My seventy-seven cents:
While I agree with your premise, in a Microsoft run world, it just doesn't work.  I've been using Word since 2.0 (still have a copy with floppies :-) and then there was 6.0 which you couldn't open with 2.0.  Then there was 7.0, same, couldn’t open older versions.  Recently, the whole Vista nightmare has been superseded by the current Win 7 nightmare now a few minutes later (actually a year) is moving toward Windows 10 this month.  Now they have this “compatibility mode” in Excel which is constantly telling you that you are about to lose functions when you save, unless you save in something else, and you aren’t sure what to save in or what they are saying.  No cue sheet should be in Word, a table isn’t a spreadsheet so it isn’t appropriate to a cue sheet application but I used it for my example of MS changing the format and keeping even one generation older from reading new ones.
I hate Microsoft.  They suck on eggs.  They embody the evil corporatists that are out to destroy society as we know it.  I just sold them something (corporate to corporate sales) and they are about as messed up as Verizon to deal with as a customer, which is just awful and incompetent.  OK, that rant started….
I see two options.  One is to always use Excel which is how I always create cues.  I use Craig Martin’s form from a couple of years ago which has the “adder” column to the right and left so all you do is plug in the distance from the last turn and it auto calculates the distance.  You still have to be competent in Excel to add space, to make it longer or shorter, to change the formula when going from the left half to the right half, etc.  Some people will not have this capability.  If we were going to require Excel, then everyone should “down save” to the oldest version they have available in their dropdown list.  You are still assuming that everyone that has a computer has access to Excel or has to go get very, very large programs downloaded.
I’m currently using Excel 2007 at work here and as I see it I can “save as”:  Excel Workbook (which is “7”), or could drop back to Excel 2003-2007 (I think this is the “compatibility mode”), then Excel 5.0/95 is the old one (like 15-25 years old now).  There are actually 26 different “things” listed in the drop down (csv files, tab delineated, etc).  The odds of everyone remembering to “down-save” are slim.  Even at that, those without ANY MS Excel or Sam’s favorite Open Office (which is free, is compatible, is a good solution for those who want to avoid the monopoly of MS.  If you have Java on your computer, you are offered Open Office every time you enable an auto upgrade) will not be able to open it.
The second option is probably the better one.  I would bet that there is an app that can be put on the website which would either “be” or emulate the needed table/spreadsheet to create and publish a cue sheet.  Then, all cue sheets would either have to be imported or entered into this “form” which would likely be some kind of tab delineated file with some calculators involved to tabulate and build the cue sheet automatically.  I’m not a webmaster so I have no idea how hard this programming would be but it is really the only way to both have your cake (to be able to let anyone edit/improve existing sheets) and eat it too (to let everyone be able to print them out).
So, I’m back to posting all cues in PDF for automatic and instant ability for anyone to print without anyone needing to remember anything and then trying to keep a master copy from each person of the original cue sheet, preferably in Excel, in a digital library so anyone could request it for editing.  Then it could be re-posted in PDF.
Stuart

~too much of anything is just enough for me. Pete Townshend

Stuart Lamb
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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Hi All
Until I bought my most recent laptop with Windows 7 Professional. I would have agreed with the use of Open Office. I used Open Office for years on my previous PC's and it worked great. But it crashed my newest laptop and I have been afraid to re install it. I felt lucky that Windows' restore program let me go back to a previous version. I actually like Open Office better than Microsoft Office but I cannot give an unqualified recommendation to the program.
In any case using Open Office as file converter program  is cumbersome; it is a large program to download and install. But using a file conversion program that is small and easy to download is an idea that is worth looking into. Perhaps, one of the club members has knows of such a program.
Ed Cahill

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

I disagree:
1. pdf is readable by anyone hooked to the internet, and pdf's print correctly;
2. I do not use, nor intend to buy MS Office;
3. Open Office is great, it does not produce reliable xls/doc's but it does produce pdf's very nicely;
4. Sorry, but I choose to retain some control over cuesheets I produce - so if others change the cuesheet it is their responsibility - thus all of Steve's cuesheets are released as pdf's.

I may provide source data for those who might need to modify my cuesheets.  Sometimes the source data is Lon/Lat xml format current/lol

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Hi All
Steve certainly defined the issues facing the club's cue sheet library. He makes an argument for the pdf file format to maintain control over the integrity of his routes. Here is the bad news--routes have to be constantly updated and changed. Roads change, traffic increases and rides that were fun become impossible to ride or to ride safely. I know; I have a file cabinet of cue sheets going back 20+ years. Any ride that is in a suburban area older than 5 years is useless. The Southern PA rides seem to hold ( Indian Steps dates from 1997 and I did not have to change it). On the other hand, I had to edit and correct a big mistake on Gary Brandon's Susquehanna Slammer ride; I was glad it was not in a pdf file format.
The question is how to maintain an up to date library and encourage new rides. One of the impediments for members to try and lead a ride for the first time is finding a ride in the library that feel comfortable in leading. The library can be controlled in a top down with a librarian who total control over what gets added and is responsible for for accuracy or we can have system which is like an "open source" operating system where club members freely add and update rides. Or we can have some combination of both.
Ed Cahill
Club Secretary

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