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Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

That pdf files can't be easily edited is not a reason for eliminating their use.

As has been discussed, they are the most easily accessible format for the most people.

Second, this notion that there should be only one format is lacking in merit in this day and age when so many people deal with multiple file formats on a daily basis.  It sets up a useless dichotomy of "one good / one bad."

Third, it takes less than a minute to convert a small file like a cue sheet from a spreadsheet into a pdf file.  I can do it either from within OpenOffice via an export function or by using PrimoPDF as a surrogate printer.  Stuart says a similar function is now in Adobe.  Anyone, with the computer literacy to create a cue sheet or edit an existing one can easily learn how to make a pdf file.   

So, the fact that routes need to edited once a year (less often is probably more the norm) hardly means that pdf files are not a good format.   Two people who have posted in this thread as being major advocates of pdf format cue sheets,  Stuart and Steve, create many cue sheets and edit them with some frequency for reasons ranging from dealing with different local conditions such as road construction, to just wanting to not ride the exact route again, to shortening a ride due to weather.   

It is just so simple to post both a spreadsheet (.xls) version and a .pdf version of a cue, that creating this idea that there has to be just one format and then getting into arguing that one is really good and the other is really bad bears little, if any, merit.   If someone doesn't know how to do it, there are plenty of people in the forum who could teach them or do it for them and email it back.

I work in OpenOffice, as noted before.  For any cue I create, I first create an OpenOffice (.ods.) format file, then save a MS Office format file (.xls) and finally create an Adobe .pdf format file.  It just isn't a big deal to make the 2nd and 3rd files - and certainly not when compared to the time and focus on detail that goes into creating and double/triple checking a cue sheet.

Sam

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

I think it is unfair and perhaps wrong to blame OpenOffice for your Windows 7 based computers crash and to give a a global tag of lack of reliability due to a problem that only occurred in Windows 7.

OpenOffice is a sound product as you note.  You didn't have these problems with earlier versions of Windows.

Only a very small percentage of computer users are using Windows 7.  I'm still using XP with all the most current updates and patches because I see no reason to change.  I certainly wouldn't change MS operating systems within the first year of release unless I absolutely had to do so.

From what I've read, OpenOffice was tested widely in beta versions of Windows 7 without problems.

History tells us that in most new versions of Windows, Microsoft makes code changes that they don't fully reveal to independent software creators that result in numerous stable products become stable.  That isn't a flaw in the software, but a flaw in the OS.

There is some problem related to the loading of Java that is causing some problems with OO installation, but there is information on the web about how to solve this.  I didn't read it in any detail because I don't have W7.  But from what I did read, it is also likely that the folks at OO can solve this rather quickly and issue an revised OO installation that deals with the Java installation.

More importantly, MS has a history of purposefully putting code into their OS and software that will trip up the products of major rival software.  Remember the lawsuits they've lost both in the US and the EU.  Maybe it has happened again with regard to OpenOffice.

There have also been some issues with MS wanting to use its own version of Java in the past, but I've forgotten the details of that.

Alternatively, perhaps it is just an inadvertent bug - new MS operating systems are usually full of these for years.  No reason to think that Windows 7 is free of this problem.

In short, OO isn't unstable because there are problems in the early days of Windows 7's existence.

Sam

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Hi Sam
I was not blaming OO for my troubles; I was just passing on my experience. As I said, I like OO; I was just chicken to try and re-install it on my new laptop. It has worked fine for me on my old Vista PC.
I also agree with putting out the cue sheets in multiple formats to insure easy editing. Steve Z. takes a different position in wanting to maintain personal control and integrity over routes he has developed.
My own personal concerns have to do with a club policy on maintaining the cue library. We really don't have one now nor do we have a cue librarian. There needs to be a policy that balances easy access and editing with reasonable control and cue sheet accuracy. If you or anyone else has thoughts on this, please pass them on. The Club Board members would be very glad to consider them.
Ed Cahill

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

I also am in favor of static pdf format. Like Steve, I will only upload my routes in pdf.
Having a single modifiable file assumes that there is one correct version of the ride. I don't subscribe to that thinking. There is Steve's version and Ed's version and the old and new versions. They are all valid. BBC's server is fine at saving multiples.

I format my cues the way I want them. They get a date and name stamp. If you want your own version, that's fine. You can open the pdf, copy the text and paste it into something else, make changes to the route, format it as you like, test ride it and stick your name on it.
That's what I do when I create them.  -Bob

bobwag@gmail.com
4130 on 28's @ 15
http://randoramble.wordpress.com/

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Sam49 wrote:

It is just so simple to post both a spreadsheet (.xls) version and a .pdf version of a cue, that creating this idea that there has to be just one format and then getting into arguing that one is really good and the other is really bad bears little, if any, merit. 

As far as I know only one file can be associated with an entry in the cue library. (Bob Wagner seems to think that it is possible to have multiple files associated with the same ride. )

It would be great if we could submit multiple files for the same ride: a pdf file, a .doc or .xls file, a .gpx file.  I would like to see this capability added to the cue library--or if it is possible to do this now. be shown how to do this.

I would be happy with a general ability to add multiple files--of different types--to a single ride. When one downloaded a ride, all of the files would be downloaded. The unwanted files could simply be deleted. We do not need anything fancy here.

my two cents on a small step we should take (or maybe have taken and I am clueless about it.)

ed

Ed Hopkins
ed.hopkins@verizon.net

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

1) Will or Janet: can you create a new subject like "Club Input on Cue Sheet File Type" or something and MOVE 95% of this thread to it so that other members can see what is being discussed and weigh in?
2) Should we do a poll, or are polls on here self selecting and instead it should be left to the board?
3) Ed, I feel sorry for you trying to piece all of this together and come up with "votes" but....

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I only post in PDF.  I agree with Steve and Bob where the creator of a cue sheet should LOCK IT by creating the very easy to download and properly print PDF format.  If we post in “open” fashion (say Excel) then we end up with random edits and “classic” rides might be changed in ways the original poster doesn’t want.  By posting in (fixed) PDF the name of the poster stays associated with the cue and if changes need to be updated one can contact them.  In case they move away is my reason for BBC keeping the “master” cue sheet in Excel in a folder on the server but NOT posted. 
The idea of a single listing for each ride and then when you click on it you either get to choose what form you download or you just get a zip file with Excel, PDF, perhaps GPS files, etc. is OK.  That way, we could appease everyone but I am still concerned about non-posters modifying cues but it would probably be rare and needed updates.  If the owner was really concerned about no longer being listed as the author, they could repost it again.  I haven’t bothered on mine.

~too much of anything is just enough for me. Pete Townshend

Stuart Lamb
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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Stuart, Bob, Steve

Wouldn't a cue library that kept versions of cue sheets satisfy your needs?

I envision a cue library from which the average user can never delete any cue sheet. (Will can or the cue librarian can delete a version when there is a special need.)  But there can be new versions of cue sheets.  When you look at a ride you can see the various versions of the ride over the years WITH comments describing the changes made in each new version.  Versions would also help with temporary modifications to cue sheets due to bridge rebuilding and the like. 

So with the cue library modified to allow for each ride being a bundle of files and a set of versions, we only need one more feature and we are in good shape.

Add a field showing that the cue has been "Verified" and by whom and when.  As we verify rides we can mark them as such and new ride leaders can have some confidence that the cue they are grabbing out of the library is a good one.

ed

Ed Hopkins
ed.hopkins@verizon.net

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

colnagotifosi wrote:

1) Will or Janet: can you create a new subject like "Club Input on Cue Sheet File Type" or something and MOVE 95% of this thread to it so that other members can see what is being discussed and weigh in?

I'm sorry, Stuart. I just don't have time to do that, even if I knew how.

Janet L. Goldstein, BBC Forums Moderator
goldstein.j.mail@gmail.com

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

Hi All
I am pleased that this thread has generated some good ideas and discussion about our cue library. The Board needs to make the library an agenda item to look at the library and make some rules on how we run it. Basically, it is wide open right now. Anyone who has a login to the web site can edit, rename, and claim authorship of any ride in the library as well as add a new ride. Your login and date you did all of this will be duly noted but you can do it. This state of affairs worked in my favor when I corrected a mistake in the Susquehanna Slammer (but I did not do it last year when I did the ride, only when I was going to lead the ride did I get around to making the correction). That is the good news--the ride cue was improved. The bad news is that it took me 5 uploads to get it right--as soon as I did an upload I would find a mistake I made. This is the problem with anyone doing edits--we don't have a librarian to function as a copy editor to check over new submissions.
Ed Hopkins mentioned gpx files which reminded me of another issue for the cue library--the future of access to bike routes. There is a very good chance that within 5 years your next bike computer will also be your smartphone which also will be your camera and your videocam. It does not take much imagination to envision a device that has a GPS  giving out turns as well as a video of the entire route which can be viewed as we go along. A video of some confusing turns would be very handy on some of our rides. When I corrected Susquehanna Slammer, I used MapMyRide.com. I put the SS on the MapMyRide by copying the corrected route as a new route.  If  I had the corrected route in my Garmin 705, I could have uploaded the gpx file. With MapMyRide, I was able to review the route, make sure the turns were still ok and then "do" the ride via the "Fly Over" function. The point of this example is that we are not very far away from leaving paper cue sheets behind. As a club we need to be thinking about how to use hand held GPS devices that contain our rides. BTW, Garmin is aware of the future of GPS in smartphones--the are pushing the "Garminfone" by Sprint (I think it is Sprint). The Garminfone appears to be a smartphone that can be a automobile GPS unit that attaches to your windshield of your car as well be a hand held GPS.
Right now, I would be happy with a club cue sheet librarian who reviews all new submissions for accuracy. As for multiple formats of the same ride, I don't think Joomla allows it. Joomla, the program that the club's web site is written in, is an easy program to use but it is also limited. The real question for me, however, is the one of access and accuracy. The more access to the files we allow the more likely we are to have errors of commission in the cue sheets. The less access we allow, the more likely we are to have errors of omission because routes have changed due to new construction and the ride author has not had time to make corrections. A good start would be a system where a club member reports to the cue sheet librarian a problem with a cue sheet (after we have a cue sheet librarian). The librarian could then ask the reporting member if they would like to make the corrections or the librarian could do it.
Right now the Board is not focused on the cue library. We are working on making the web site easier to navigate and we are trying to decide the future of the ride schedule in the Newsletter. I can say now that the Event Calendar and the Out of Bounds rides will be combined with the Calendar View of the regular ride schedule; they each will have their own ride category. Members will need to use the category sort function more often to see the rides they are interested in. The Calendar itself will take up most of the page with the text instructions moving to its own page. The list view and the mobile view will accessed from the calendar view page and not the main menu. The Event Calendar and the Out of Bound page will also be deleted from the main menu.
The printed ride schedule is slated to leave the Newsletter by next year. I am putting this info out now to allow for comments. There will also be an announcement in the next issue of the newsletter. The ride schedule in the NL is increasing out of date and inaccurate. Each week at least one or two new rides are posted within a week of the ride date. Some rides are deleted at the last minute (I did it this past weekend substituting a different ride). There were 3 new rides posted with in a week of the Memorial Day weekend alone. If you are reading this email, you don't need me to tell you that members need to check the web site ride schedule to find the latest in ride additions, substitutions and deletions; pass it on to any member who still depends on the printed NL.
Ed Cahill
BBC Secretary

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Re: Crofton to Galesville cue needed

ehc3rd@gmail.com wrote:

As for multiple formats of the same ride, I don't think Joomla allows it.

Ed

As far as I can tell Joomla DOES allow the uploading of multiple files. I spent a half hour on this and found two possible solutions.

One solution I used on my test Joomla site and got it working.  Use zip files which contain multiple files.

Just have WIll set up the global configurations to allow for .zip files as a legal file type--if it is not already.  Than the user compresses all of his files together into one .zip file and uploads them.  When someone wants the file(s) for a ride, he or she downloads the .zip file, uncompresses and has them all available. This can be done now. It seems kind of trivial and it would immediately give us the ability to upload and download multiple files for the same ride.

Another possible solution can be found here:

http://www.techsuccessmap.com/article/8 … -in-joomla

I was not able to get this latter working--but, hey, how many solutions do we need?

Please be careful about saying what Joomla can and can't do.  You take options off the table that could be easy solutions.

Will: can you weigh in on this discussion?

(the other) Ed

Ed Hopkins
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